![Former human services minister Marise Payne appearing at the Robodebt Royal Commission on Tuesday. Picture supplied Former human services minister Marise Payne appearing at the Robodebt Royal Commission on Tuesday. Picture supplied](/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/106459643/5565cbb4-5342-4cd1-aafb-1c3ec17d9ccf.png/r0_0_2887_1623_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg)
Long-serving Liberal senator Marise Payne has suggested she was too junior to lead robodebt's creation, failing to recall any memories over how the "unlawful" scheme was launched under the former government.
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The NSW senator said she also could not recall, nor explain, why advice from the Human Services Department detailing the potential need for policy or legislative change for the debt recovery proposal was left off a cabinet sub-committee submission.
Senator Payne appeared before the royal commission into robodebt on Tuesday to discuss her knowledge of the income averaging program that illegally raised debts against historical welfare recipients using Australian Taxation Office data.
The former Liberal frontbencher's telling of events comes ahead of a highly-anticipated appearance by ex-prime minister Scott Morrison, considered an architect of the controversial program, on Wednesday.
Senator Payne, then a junior human services minister in 2015 before later taking up more senior roles in defence and foreign affairs, said she could not identify any evidence suggesting she had approved or taken the robodebt proposal to the government's Expenditure Review Committee in March 2015.
The senator's suggestions leave the senior minister at the time, Mr Morrison, then-social services minister, primarily accountable for the scheme's creation.
From 2015 until 2020, the scheme wrongly recovered more than $750 million from 381,000 people, with several victims taking their lives while being pursued for the false debts.
A federal court ruled it unlawful with the former Coalition government agreeing to $1.2 billion payout to those who wrongly received the debt notices.
![Former Human Services and Social Services secretary Kathryn Campbell. Picture by Keegan Carroll Former Human Services and Social Services secretary Kathryn Campbell. Picture by Keegan Carroll](/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/106459643/f33534cc-054d-4870-a4c9-796155b50ef9.jpg/r0_256_5000_3078_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg)
Documents revealed during Tuesday's hearing showed the new policy proposal was first signed off by Mr Morrison on February 20, 2015 with a copy being received by a Human Services Department liaison officer a week earlier.
But Senator Payne said she could not recall whether she had seen the proposal, noting she hadn't signed or annotated the copy.
She added as she was a junior minister, and not in the cabinet, at the time she would not have necessarily seen the proposal nor a 364-page submission taken to the cabinet sub-committee more than a month later on March 25, 2015.
"We have endeavoured to determine whether I was or was not [shown the proposal or submission], and have not been able to identify that," Senator Payne said.
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Commissioner Catherine Holmes asked the senator if she thought it would be "remarkable" for a junior minister charged with overseeing the Human Services Department - and involved in a series of earlier meetings to set up the robodebt scheme - to not have seen a cabinet sub-committee submission prior to attending the meeting with her senior minister.
Senator Payne responded she could not recall any specifics and could only relay what the documents she found had shown.
"I was familiar with it, and versed in the detail of the discussion, so I understand the point that you're making commissioner, but I can't assist you," she said.
'A shortcoming at a departmental level'
Department documents provided to the junior minister in the months leading up to the cabinet committee meeting flagged the need for policy or legislative changes in order for historical tax office data to raise debts.
Tax office data provides an annual income figure, which the department sought to "smooth" out in order to average a recipient's fortnightly wage.
But the advice was left out of the cabinet sub-committee submission at some point between Mr Morrison signing the February 20 policy proposal and the meeting's date on March 25, 2015.
![Former ministers Scott Morrison and Marise Payne at a Centrelink in Campbelltown in 2015. Picture by Anna Warr Former ministers Scott Morrison and Marise Payne at a Centrelink in Campbelltown in 2015. Picture by Anna Warr](/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/106459643/cd0bf706-a63a-46e4-aa3b-a1ae66b58795.jpg/r0_268_5250_3231_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg)
Senator Payne could not recall whether any of the "ongoing discussions" between Mr Morrison's Social Services Department and the Human Services Department resulted in legislative proposals or further advice.
"That appears to identify that there was a shortcoming at a departmental level about the adequacy of the advice given to yourself and minister Morrison," senior counsel Justin Greggery said.
"That is a question that I have asked myself in recent weeks preparing for this engagement," Senator Payne said in response.
"I think that if my expectation was to see further advice, from paragraphs such as that, which said that my department was working with the senior cabinet department, and that did not come to pass and then I've not been provided with or been able to access a reason for that."
Earlier evidence showed Senator Payne had taken notes during meetings with Mr Morrison and the department's then-secretary Kathryn Campbell in the months before the government announced the program.
"'Cracking down' - what can we do w/o having to legislate," one note said, which she agreed was her handwriting.
"'Confidence' problem - in how much work we do to chase people," another read.