APS response to robodebt royal commission 'an opportunity to fix things', former Public Service Commissioner Andrew Podger says

As the federal government considers its formal response to commissioner Catherine Holmes' report, former Australian Public Service commissioner Andrew Podger - who provided a written report on public service reform for the inquiry - urged it to adopt reforms recommended by the 2019 Thodey review and backed by the royal commission.

"This is a terrible case of dreadful treatment of disadvantaged Australians," Professor Podger said.

"But it's also an opportunity to fix things once and for all. You don't get these opportunities very often. This opportunity needs to be taken, and taken firmly."

The government already has a Public Service Amendment Bill to add "stewardship" to the list of required APS values and limit the ability of ministers to interfere in APS employment decisions, among other changes.

But Professor Podger urged the government to go further and implement changes including giving the APS Commissioner a lead role in advising on the appointment and dismissal of department secretaries and strengthening the independence of the commissioner by requiring that the Opposition leader be consulted in their appointment.

The government needs to "address the issues of the degree of independence in the public service and the relationship it has between the [department] secretaries and ministers, sorting out tenure appointments and limits to the capacity of prime minsters to sack secretaries," Professor Podger said.

The former APS head praised the role of junior officials who initially raised concerns about the robodebt scheme.

"There was a strong view amongst more junior people that what they were being forced to do was wrong, and they knew and they said so," Professor Podger said.

"The culture down the line was a very positive culture. The problem was, that was not supported by their senior managers. Indeed, [they] were taking a reverse position.

"This is an opportunity to address these very big issues of culture at the top end of the public service, which has been created in part by the context of their relationship with ministers."

In her report, Commissioner Holmes highlighted how senior public servants including former Department of Human Services secretary Kathryn Campbell, manipulated, obscured and withheld advice to suit the purposes of Scott Morrison, who as Social Services Minister wanted to implement the robodebt scheme.

Ms Holmes called out the venality and "cowardice" of those involved.

It is expected that some may face civil or criminal prosecution for their conduct.

Associate Professor at the University of Canberra Dr Russell Ayres said while cultural change would be difficult, allowing it to happen from the bottom up could be the most effective approach.

"I would have liked to have seen a recommendation that was much more strongly about the the support, and development, and exposure of junior- and middle-level public servants to good practice, when developing policy, giving advice, doing analysis.

"Those are the things that really shape culture, and so much of this is about culture, which is a difficult thing to manage.

"It's almost by definition, not something you can directly pull a lever and change."

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Dr Ayres said having more junior public servants in the room during meetings with ministers and ministerial staff would in turn hold senior staff accountable.

"There's a subtle signal to the other people in the room that this is a formal process, and you can't just simply let things slide under the radar because, in a sense, the junior person is there and observing."

"There's nothing like being observed to make you realise, 'I need to be a little bit more careful about the way in which I conduct this meeting and the relationships and the way in which I might express things'."

"Because it is a formal relationship between ministers and the public service."

The professional relationship between ministerial staff and public servants was also under-examined in the report, Dr Ayres added.

While the commissioner noted her support for the introduction of a code of conduct for ministerial staff, no further recommendations were made about their duties.

"So much of what happened in robodebt, and what can go badly in the public service is as a result of public servants responding to what they understand ministers and their offices want them to do."

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